tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post6570038935002897686..comments2023-10-31T05:03:38.910-07:00Comments on Letters from a broad...: Come on baby, won't you show some class? (more on primate sexuality)C. L. Hansonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-16044624463596890202008-03-12T10:19:00.000-07:002008-03-12T10:19:00.000-07:00Hey Jane!!!I think it's instructive to compare sex...Hey Jane!!!<BR/><BR/>I think it's instructive to compare sex work with the types of jobs performed by undocumented (illegal) immigrants (such as migrant fruit-picking, housecleaning, nannying). Such jobs can legitimately be seen as degrading for many people who have the skills and talents to do more prestigious jobs but are forced into these jobs by economic necessity. And since the workers are undocumented, they are routinely exploited by their employers.<BR/><BR/>It seems clear (to me at least) that the way to help such people is not to wipe out these industries entirely (leaving them with one less opportunity for income for themselves and their families), but rather (1) to see to it that as many other opportunities as possible are available, and (2) to fix the laws to prevent employers from harming and cheating their employees.<BR/><BR/>In the case of undocumented immigrants, exactly how to fix the laws is a hotly debated question at the moment, but there's a lot of agreement that the current situation is broken and needs to be changed. With the sex industry it's a no brainer: make it legal and regulated so a prostitute can call the cops when someone harms her without worrying that she'll be the one thrown in jail.C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-51734882530516952622008-03-11T17:34:00.000-07:002008-03-11T17:34:00.000-07:00I have to admit that I've never come across an arg...I have to admit that I've never come across an argument against sex-work that brings up non-sexual "degrading" work. You're absolutely correct: there's a cultural assumption inherent that says "sex is bad!!!". One that I have to admit I don't feel personally, but obviously buy into culturally. I shall have to let this one steep for a bit.xJanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04944518104691406838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-72330500822752856922008-03-10T23:14:00.000-07:002008-03-10T23:14:00.000-07:00Hey Jane!!!I agree with you that we should be adva...Hey Jane!!!<BR/><BR/>I agree with you that we should be advancing the cause of women of all classes and races. As I said above, I recognize that there are women who see sexuality as incredibly intimate and would feel deeply traumatized by a life of prostitution. I don't want to trivialize their pain. For women in this situation, the best way to help them is to make sure that other options exists by making social justice a priority.<BR/><BR/>It is important to keep in mind that a whole lot of women (and men) are forced by economic necessity into lots of degrading and dangerous jobs: scrubbing other people's floors and toilets, transient fruit-picking, sweat shops, etc. Those jobs which are unsafe because of lack of regulation should be brought up to code by legal means.<BR/><BR/>But to single out the sex industry, to suppress it and denounce it -- above all other types of labor -- is not feminist. Why not denounce the practice of having people come in and scrub one's house (a job I'd find far more degrading than being a stripper, but that's just me...)? It's because of the belief that there's something <I>inherently degrading</I> about a woman using her sexuality freely -- it marks a woman as trash for life, thus all women should be protected from it at all costs. That is <I>exactly</I> the attitude I am fighting against. It degrades all of the women of the sex industry (and limits their future choices) regardless of where they fall on the I love/hate this job spectrum.<BR/><BR/>And it is indeed a spectrum. The women of the sex industry are <I>humans</I>, and they should be though of as such. As with any other job, there are a whole lot of complex factors involved in taking it. It isn't just a question of "two types of whores" those (like Cameron Diaz) who do it because they're rich and can do whatever they please, and those who are slaves weeping nightly for their lost virtue. The example of Cameron Diaz (and even Paris Hilton) demonstrates that when women don't have to answer to society's stigmas and can do whetever they want to, many of them choose this of their own volition. Why should that be true of poor or middle class women any less than rich women, when given the option of using their body however they see fit without worry that society will toss them on the trash bin for it? Famous starlets who pose for porn benefit the average working girl (of the sex industry) by elevating the status of this job, making it easier to move on from such a job because it's seen as no big deal to have this in your past (as opposed to having it be the scarlet letter that marks the rest of your life).C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-39683797454552721862008-03-10T17:14:00.000-07:002008-03-10T17:14:00.000-07:00CL: I'm late to posting and I apologize, it's been...CL: I'm late to posting and I apologize, it's been on my list of to-dos for a while. I think you and I are using "objectification" in different ways, and I completely agree with you that constant exposure to women helps men (and lesbians) deal with arousal on an on-going basis. But much as you indicate that sexual fidelity is a class-based luxury, so are some forms of promiscuity. Cameron Diaz' (to choose a PWW at random) decision to pose for playboy and the decision of women at my local strip club to perform are two separate and unequal decisions about each woman's display of sexuality. The first is in a position to choose who sees her naked form, who pays (and how much is paid) for it use, and equally, who does not. The second is only rarely in a similar position: to choose who sees her nakedness and how much is paid for it. So while I agree with you that the former's self-objectification may be in the greater service of society, the latter's self-objectification is still very much a class-based and often unwilling act.<BR/><BR/>Feminism may well do a disservice to many women in many ways, but until every stripper and prostitute chooses those occupations freely and without class-submission, I don't think that it will have done its duty: to advance women of all classes and races.xJanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04944518104691406838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-19171730384498797332008-02-29T22:57:00.000-08:002008-02-29T22:57:00.000-08:00p.s. Sorry to have sent this back through the RSS ...p.s. Sorry to have sent this back through the RSS -- there was an error in one of the links.<BR/><BR/>By the way, did anyone catch where the title of this post came from? From writing this, I've had this song stuck in my head for week now:<BR/><BR/><I>Come on baby, won't you show some class?<BR/>Why ya wanna move so fast?<BR/>We don't have to take our clothes off<BR/>to have a good time, oh no.<BR/>We could dance and party all night<BR/>and drink some cherry wine, uh-huh.</I><BR/><BR/>This song annoyed the hell out of me as a teenager. I remember one time we were on some sort of LDS young women's trip (I think we were going to girls' camp or something), and the other girls were singing this over and over. Interestingly, the adult leaders heartily encouraged them even though drinking any kind of wine is a big-time sin for Mormons. But the adults were so happy to see the girls getting into the anti-sex message that they were willing to be lenient about praising the lesser sin of drinking.<BR/><BR/>For myself, while listening to them singing this song, I was thinking "True, fair enough. But we don't have to keep them on to have a good time either..." ;^)C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-27758958687929968782008-02-29T11:38:00.000-08:002008-02-29T11:38:00.000-08:00Thanks JA!!!Thanks JA!!!C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-62123005922623067222008-02-29T11:34:00.000-08:002008-02-29T11:34:00.000-08:00Very interesting and insightful!Very interesting and insightful!Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-13416683035977991532008-02-27T11:45:00.000-08:002008-02-27T11:45:00.000-08:00Thanks Philly Chief!!!That's a very interesting ob...Thanks Philly Chief!!!<BR/><BR/>That's a very interesting observation. I think it's true that a lot of the shame and restrictions placed on women are due to the fact that many men aren't comfortable with the effect on them...C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-79963605562636743732008-02-27T11:31:00.000-08:002008-02-27T11:31:00.000-08:00Great post.As to the prostitution/degradation thin...Great post.<BR/><BR/>As to the prostitution/degradation thing, I've heard that with exotic dancers as well. Anyone who has experienced such a club will tell you the ones degrading themselves are us men. The women are in absolute control and perhaps this is also why cultures (especially the muslim cultures) have such strict guidelines for women's attire. It's the feeling of not having control or being at the mercy of a woman due to her appearance that's unsavory to some men. <BR/><BR/>Going back to OG's point, I've seen this played out in business meetings where some women dress to show off certain assets. Why? It helps close a deal. Once again, gaining control from attire, so perhaps at least one motivation for business attire guidelines is to level the playing field.PhillyChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03355892225956705948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-39008928321335949172008-02-25T11:43:00.000-08:002008-02-25T11:43:00.000-08:00Hey Wayne!!!That looks cool!!!Here's the link. Is...Hey Wayne!!!<BR/><BR/>That looks cool!!!<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=220" REL="nofollow">Here's the link</A>. Is there a transcript available? I'm not really an audio person, but it sounds interesting -- particularly the episide about getting one's testosterone tested. I suspect I'd test as having a high testosterone level for a woman. Even though I don't have masculine physical characteristics (aside from being fairly tall: 5'8"), sometimes I feel like I'm a straight man trapped in the body and mind of a straight woman. I'm sure that sounds insane, but it fits. Imagining gay sex (either gender) leaves me going "meh" -- only a straight scenario turns me on, and every time I've fallen passionately in love (many times in my life) the object has been male. Yet when I picture an erotic scenario in my mind, weirdly I identify with the male perspective. I don't know why, but I find that I can completely relate to voracious male sexual desire, but the sweet romantic scenes that women are supposed to like don't interest me at all...<BR/><BR/>Hey Lessie!!!<BR/><BR/>I read all of my comments, even those on posts that are very old. And I almost always think about the feedback I get and then post a response myself. My husband jokingly asked me what I'll do when my blog ges so popular that I can't respond to every comment, but I almost hope that never happens. The two-way communication aspect is what I love most about blogging.<BR/><BR/>Regarding prostitution: Overall, I think legalization it the best solution.<BR/><BR/>As I said above, I recognize that there are women who see sexuality as incredibly intimate and would feel deeply traumatized by a life of prostitution. I don't want to trivialize their pain. For women in this situation, the best way to help them is to make sure that other options exists by making social justice a priority (go Obama!!! ;^) ). Also, legalizing prostitution helps by giving women legal protection and legal recourse if they're being abused.<BR/><BR/>The next thing I'd say is that there are some people for whom this occupation isn't the epitome of horrifying shame. It's not purely unskilled labor -- building a loyal clientele takes knowledge, experience, and effort. So naturally some people in the sex industry are proud of their work and deserve to be. The belief that this is the most horrifying thing that could every befall any woman degrades them far more than the occupation itself does.C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-41638363447484891312008-02-25T08:46:00.000-08:002008-02-25T08:46:00.000-08:00If you're still following this thread Chanson, I h...If you're still following this thread Chanson, I have a question for you. How do you feel about prostitution? In some ways, I feel like it should be legalized to protect the women who may be being abused by pimps, johns, etc. But part of me also wonders if those women are aware that they are more than their sexuality? I just hate to think that a woman would pick sex worker as her career simply because she didn't feel like she had any other talents or options. Of course, I realize that the money in places like Nevada where prostitution is regulated, is pretty good, so there's a whole other aspect. But anyway, I'm curious about your thoughts on it.Lessiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10741982738892350097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-17758818684660118412008-02-25T08:38:00.000-08:002008-02-25T08:38:00.000-08:00Fascinating story about Testosterone on this Ameri...Fascinating story about Testosterone on this American Life. Especially the one from a former woman. <BR/><BR/>http://w<BR/>ww.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=220beatdadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05497471619358149692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-4813685013159991022008-02-23T22:52:00.000-08:002008-02-23T22:52:00.000-08:00Hi Tom!!!Glad you like my article!!! I completely...Hi Tom!!!<BR/><BR/>Glad you like my article!!! I completely agree that it's important to look at the biological mandates and forge contemporary attitudes that at least have some hope of being in harmony with them. I'm fascinated by trying to understand humans and how they work. And you're completely right that so many of our societal norms seem to have evolved out of the urge to control others. That's one of the irritating facts of human cultural behavior that I'm interested in analyzing.<BR/><BR/>That's basically the situation when some feminists label certain sex acts "objectification." I don't think prudery is always fake -- I'm convinced there are many women who only want to express their sexuality in the context of a loving, intimate relationship -- and that's fine, I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is when those women project their sexuality on other women and assume that a woman whose sexual responses are different must be broken.<BR/><BR/>I personally feel liberated by rejecting the belief that having sex with a man degrades or diminishes me in any way.<BR/><BR/>If other women don't feel liberated by the same thing, that's fine. But don't try to judge and diagnose me or tell me that being a woman makes me incompetent to make good choices about my own body (whether you agree with the traditional account that it's because of women's natural inferiority or whether you believe the new "radical feminist" reasoning that it's the "brainwashing by the patriarchy" that makes women's own choices meaningless if they're too sexual).<BR/><BR/>These narrow-minded people have developed a theory that if a man is aroused by the sight of any part of a woman's body, then he's reducing her to a "sex object" in his mind. How do these feminists know that's what he's thinking? Are they in his head with him? And how precisely does this cause the man to harm the woman? They don't say because it's all vague and unprovable claims about how it will make him more sexist, mixed with claims that have been <I>proven false</I> like the belief it increases the man's propensity to rape.<BR/><BR/>To women who are distressed by the thought of a woman stripping for a man -- and the thought of a man enjoying it -- I say the same thing as I say to people who are distressed at the thought of gay sex: <I>If you don't like it, then don't do it</I>. But don't sit around obsessing about other people's sex lives if you find it repulsive to you.C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-54924199379405459082008-02-23T16:07:00.000-08:002008-02-23T16:07:00.000-08:00Wow Chanson, I never cease to be amazed at the dep...Wow Chanson, I never cease to be amazed at the depth of your understanding of social issues. The whole concept of feminism has perpetually baffled me and yet here in a few sentences you've shed some amazing light on the subject.<BR/><BR/>I can't speak to a lot of the things you've addressed here but I do know that there are certain biological mandates extant in humans and the more we do battle with those mandates or the more we attempt to sublimate them, the more fucked up we get.<BR/><BR/>I think it's important to look at the biological mandates and forge contemporary attitudes that at least have some hope of being in harmony with them.<BR/><BR/>For example, I think it's critical that young men and women be allowed to explore their bodies freely during puberty and that they be allowed to determine for themselves (without parental involvement) to what degree they will self-pleasure. (Sex with others is a different story for obvious reasons.)<BR/><BR/>So many of our societal norms seem to have evolved out of the urge to control others. I see a lot of kids who are growing up "out of the church" as opposed to those of us who grew up completely influenced by it, making choices for themselves that seem to be so much healthier and smarter and more grounded in their individual realities. I'm encouraged by that. <BR/><BR/>Compared to where we were 20 or 30 years ago, wow, we seem to be making some serious progress! I look at openly sexual women, like Jackie Bissett for example, and am moved by them rather than being put-off by them. I think one of the most beautiful things about a woman is the strength she shows from a sexual and/or sensual place.<BR/><BR/>What I find to be a major turn-off are women who make a big show of their prudishness. Gag me - it's so false.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-76066127726646071742008-02-22T22:49:00.000-08:002008-02-22T22:49:00.000-08:00Hey King Aardvark!!!Yeah, I should write some more...Hey King Aardvark!!!<BR/><BR/>Yeah, I should write some more posts about gorillas and chimpanzees. Every time I write about <A HREF="http://lfab-uvm.blogspot.com/2005/11/mating-game-primatologist-looks-at.html" REL="nofollow">primate sexuality</A>, I always end up talking mostly about humans... ;^)<BR/><BR/>Hey Lessie!!!<BR/><BR/>I wouldn't say that whatever the church teaches about sex one should necessarily do the opposite. It's good that you're exploring your own feelings, responses, and boundaries at your own pace.<BR/><BR/>Hey Beat Dad!!!<BR/><BR/>There's a lot of gray area for married couples in terms of how much it's okay to respond to external sexual stimuli. I think it's important for both partners to make an effort to be considerate and understanding towards one another (understanding about the fact that some sexual response to other people is normal, considerate about not focusing too much attention on fansaties about other people if your agreement is monogamy). What rules and guidelines that boils down to in practice will vary from couple to couple.<BR/><BR/>Also, it's true that I'm attractive in a businss suit. ;^) But not distracting in quite the same way as if I were to go to work in a bikini. People wouldn't respond in quite the same way, and that's normal.C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-59459766938232136572008-02-22T16:41:00.000-08:002008-02-22T16:41:00.000-08:00As my wife pointed out to me early on in our relat...As my wife pointed out to me early on in our relationship; "It may not be appropriate for me to look at other men when I am with you, but, if I am subtle enough you won't notice." <BR/><BR/>She more or less said this to me once when we were walking down a crowded street and, rather blatantly, watched as a very attractive Latin guy walked by. <BR/><BR/>So, maybe it was not appropriate, and it is not appropriate ,for me to do the same when she is around. But being human ,and given to ogle when we see someone attractive, we will do it, but subtly. <BR/><BR/>On another note; clothing or lack there of is not always a turn on; most of the time it is an energy or look, or just the shape of someones face or body that is attractive. So whether or not you are going in public trying to attract someone, does not matter. <BR/><BR/>You may be just as attractive in your business suit as you are in dirty sweats and a t-shirt.beatdadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05497471619358149692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-49710959551051173112008-02-22T13:20:00.000-08:002008-02-22T13:20:00.000-08:00Yes, I think I see more clearly what you were tryi...Yes, I think I see more clearly what you were trying to say. It's funny though that I'm still battling the social constructs that were taught to me when I was LDS. My husband and I watched a movie last night that certainly stepped outside the bounds we would have normally gone just a few months ago. I found it funny that while I'm in theory okay with nudity etc. I was still somewhat taken aback by it in reality. It's hard overcoming a lifetime of fear of bodies.Lessiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10741982738892350097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-8132795168369118802008-02-22T12:22:00.000-08:002008-02-22T12:22:00.000-08:00I must say, I'm disappointed in this post, CL. Fro...I must say, I'm disappointed in this post, CL. <BR/><BR/>From the title, I was sure it was going to be about chimps (and not just one line of chimpiness). Way to get my hopes up.<BR/><BR/>Interesting post though. I never thought about sexual display in that way before. <BR/><BR/>(Of course, being your typical heterosexual guy means that my typical thoughts about sexual display are "Boobieeees! Weeeeeeeee!" which isn't very helpful in any way).King Aardvarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02785457928646226831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-60607595975099440862008-02-22T10:49:00.000-08:002008-02-22T10:49:00.000-08:00Hey Lessie!!!I know exactly what you're talking ab...Hey Lessie!!!<BR/><BR/>I know exactly what you're talking about. You want to be able to dress for your comfort -- even if it means bearing your shoulders or whatever -- and not have it be seen as a sexual signal. This is exactly what I'm talking about.<BR/><BR/>Men who are used to seeing women completely naked are that much less likely to see casual dress as an attempt to seduce. Imagine some guy from a puritan country who never sees women except occasionally in a neck-to-toe sack -- and how he'd react to seeing you in shorts -- compared to how the guys you know react.C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-41656544720844531712008-02-22T10:30:00.000-08:002008-02-22T10:30:00.000-08:00Hi Chanson. I see your point to an extent, howeve...Hi Chanson. I see your point to an extent, however, being still deeply embedded in Mormon culture, I also meet men who think that they are entitled to sex even when women don't want it. They also think that all women are there for their viewing pleasure and that they are entitled to be aroused (however, women who feel the same way are condemned as sluts etc.). <BR/><BR/>Something that I've been thinking of in terms of modesty is that just because I'm showing my shoulders, midriff, or thighs doesn't mean I'm being sexual. I think the way we reveal parts of our bodies also sends the signal as to whether we're trying to be sexual or not. There's body language, push-up bras, thigh-highs, that clearly send sexual messages, but there are also your general tank tops, bikinis, and things that simply let the body be what it is (with some support). <BR/><BR/>Am I making sense? I know what I'm trying to say, but I'm not articulating it very well.Lessiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10741982738892350097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-23087920691387861102008-02-22T08:31:00.000-08:002008-02-22T08:31:00.000-08:00Hey Ordinary Girl!!!Exactly. There are definitely...Hey Ordinary Girl!!!<BR/><BR/>Exactly. There are definitely situations where a display of sexuality is not appropriate. But it's a question of "there's a time and a place" not a question of "arousing a man by displaying your body is inherently degrading."C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-36378895033547237442008-02-22T08:25:00.000-08:002008-02-22T08:25:00.000-08:00Great article, CL.I think the only time when I fee...Great article, CL.<BR/><BR/>I think the only time when I feel uncomfortable is when a female chooses to show her sexuality in an inappropriate situation. I'm not sure if I should feel uncomfortable, but here's a couple of examples.<BR/><BR/>In a business situation you wouldn't choose to wear a bikini because it's inappropriate. But why is it inappropriate? Because you're goal shouldn't be attracting a mate, but concentrating on the job you're doing. I suppose that's part of why there's a dress code in place at most companies.<BR/><BR/>Once a woman has chosen a mate, is it inappropriate for her to show her sexuality to other men, at least while she's in a committed relationship. While I don't find a bikini at the beach inappropriate, I might at a shopping center. I suppose there's an idea of tastefulness that's still ingrained and I'm not sure how I feel about it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09429263099197981481noreply@blogger.com