tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post8196459115051578781..comments2023-10-31T05:03:38.910-07:00Comments on Letters from a broad...: The "War on Christmas" and the war on being considerate to others...C. L. Hansonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-7147108285122470122007-12-28T23:06:00.000-08:002007-12-28T23:06:00.000-08:00Thanks John!!!Thanks John!!!C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-40657084159222417782007-12-28T13:18:00.000-08:002007-12-28T13:18:00.000-08:00And, really, could they even think of a stupider i...And, really, could they even think of a stupider issue to use to distract the public from real issues like the president threatening to start yet another real war?<BR/><BR/>How true. Benazir Bhutto gets assassinated because she's a WOMAN who dares to tell Muslim men that they might just have it all wrong... and we have a "war on Christmas".<BR/><BR/>Very nice post, C.L. Keep up the good work. You definitely deserved your <A HREF="http://nomorehornets.blogspot.com/2007/12/stermy-awards-for-december-2007.html" REL="nofollow">Stermie Award</A>!John Evohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10868904051881865159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-63064678764521878072007-12-28T13:14:00.000-08:002007-12-28T13:14:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.John Evohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10868904051881865159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-21949498579313352422007-12-25T00:08:00.000-08:002007-12-25T00:08:00.000-08:00Oh, and speaking of humbug, Have a look at this!!!...Oh, and speaking of humbug, Have a look at <A HREF="http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/12/03/trials-of-a-softhearted-scrooge/" REL="nofollow">this</A>!!! The perfect holiday decoration for every Christmas-loving Scrooge!!! :DC. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-5826355962020378602007-12-24T21:17:00.000-08:002007-12-24T21:17:00.000-08:00Hey Holly!!!That's a good point -- back when we we...Hey Holly!!!<BR/><BR/>That's a good point -- back when we were kids the supposed threat to Christmas was the commercialism of it (as I discussed in my post about <A HREF="http://lfab-uvm.blogspot.com/2007/12/grinch-and-true-meaning-of-christmas.html" REL="nofollow">the Grinch</A>). But that seems to have taken a backseat to complaining about the threat posed by multiculturalism. It's probably because "stimulating the economy" (by buying lots of crap) has lately become a patriotic activity, thus no longer criticized. But I think you've hit on the truest, most longstanding Christmas tradition: complaining that somebody else is celebrating it wrong. ;^)<BR/><BR/>"Bah Humbug!" is a great traditional Christmas greeting!!! Humbug to you too! And, y'know, Merry Christmas!! :DC. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-56790813414000286142007-12-24T15:29:00.000-08:002007-12-24T15:29:00.000-08:00I'm late to this particular Christmas party--or wa...I'm late to this particular Christmas party--or war on Christmas--but the nice thing about that is that I've gotten to read some pretty interesting comments. Hey Tom--you rock! You are the kind of friend I'd be happy to have wish me anything, and yours is a very nice statement of the approach I try to take myself.<BR/><BR/>For the record, I'm an agnostic/ leaning-to-atheist recovering Mormon who still likes Christmas carols, all things decorated with holly, the smell of fresh-cut pine and presents under the tree.<BR/><BR/>But I also celebrate solstice, and the one celebration I don't care for is the forced frivolity of New Year's Eve.<BR/><BR/>One of the things that puzzles me about the "war on christmas" business is the way the "war on Christmas" used to be something people waged when they made it too "commercial"--that was always the big deal when I was a little girl: you weren't truly feeling the Christmas if you weren't claiming that someone else put too much emphasis on toys and Santa. I don't hear so much about that--of course I don't go to church at all these days, so maybe I just get to miss those sermons. But it does still seem to be the case that part of the proper holiday spirit involves getting bent out of shape about someone else's attitude to December 24 and December 25.<BR/><BR/>One of the first groups to ban the celebration of Christmas was the New England Puritans, who felt that partying on a religious holiday meant that you didn't experience it with the proper reverence. They wanted to ban such greeting as "Merry Christmas" because Christmas wasn't supposed to be merry; it was supposed to be somber and thoughtful. You can say they were joyless, but you can't say they weren't christian.<BR/><BR/>I still think that the holiday/Christmas greeting "bah, humbug!" is used far too seldom. I forgot to trot it out this year--I pretty much went with "Merry Christmas"--but I'll try to remember it for next year.<BR/><BR/>Bah, humbug! :-DHollyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16506658008234465418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-32511468565359013092007-12-24T05:58:00.000-08:002007-12-24T05:58:00.000-08:00Hey Patience!!!Happy (bleated) Solstice!!! I thin...Hey Patience!!!<BR/><BR/>Happy (bleated) Solstice!!! I think Alon means well, but seems to have a weirdly stereotyped view of what "white liberals" are like.C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-55202749512094994242007-12-24T00:32:00.000-08:002007-12-24T00:32:00.000-08:00Hey Alon!!!I know Diwali is a month before Christm...Hey Alon!!!<BR/><BR/>I know Diwali is a month before Christmas -- I've been to a Diwali celebration (and Hindu services) with friends from India. The reason I include it in this list is because it's a <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diwali" REL="nofollow">festival of light</A> from the Indo-European tradition, thus I think it traces back to the same family of traditions as Christmas and the "festival of lights" aspect of <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanukkah" REL="nofollow">Hanukkah</A> (which was added to the original story of military victory probably because of Hellenic influences). It looks like the "trick or treat" aspect of Halloween and the <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wassailing" REL="nofollow">wassailing</A> (for charity/donations) aspect of Christmas also trace back to a common family of Pagan traditions. Recognizing only one incarnation of a given tradition cuts off so much richness, like cutting a symphony down to the parts of a few instruments. So, yes, I do mean to include a happy (belated) Diwali in my "Happy Holidays" wish. If you want to wish people "Merry Christmas" right around the time you're throwing your parties for Chinese New Year -- <I>if you're sincere about it</I> -- then knock yourself out. ;^)<BR/><BR/>Personally, I just happen to like traditions -- I think they're interesting. Even the deliberately invented ones like Thanksgiving (though admittedly that one is not nearly as fun as "Talk Like a Pirate Day" ;^) ).<BR/><BR/>To be honest, I think I would have loved to have gone to a middle school that did what you describe. This is one of the things I loved about living in New Jersey -- learning about different cultures first-hand. In addition to learning about Indian traditions, there was such a large Jewish community that the Jewish traditions got included by Jewish people themselves, not as lip-service to multiculturalism. It was just a stupid little thing, but one of my most amusing memories was receiving the usual weekly supermarket flyer wishing me and my family a happy Passover. This was the same supermarket whose flyers would be alternately wishing me a Happy Halloween or Merry Christmas in other flyers, but it was fun because, well, it was an example of people making assumptions that are a little different from the usual assumptions. (BTW, regardless of what one may read into my article, I'm not opposed to stores wishing people a "Merry Christmas" -- I'm fine with that -- I just think it's stupid for people to insist that stores exclude other holidays.) Anyway, I thought it was really cool to walk around downtown Princeton during the holiday season and see some stores decorated for Christmas alternating with stores decorated for Hanukkah.<BR/><BR/>I know that in some ways emphasizing Hanukkah in particular seems to indicate ignorance of Jewish traditions because -- as you pointed out -- it's far from being a significant holiday for the Jewish religion. But to me it makes perfect sense. Christmas, by logic, should not be an important Christian holiday (especially compared to, say, Easter, and considering the fact that most Christians who are versed in theology don't think Jesus was born on December 25th). But it has risen to prominence because of cultural and secular reasons. The same thing has happened (in America, at least) to Hannukkah, and since there's no deep religious significance to blaspheme), why not have a public "festival of lights" that celebrates how this tradition has passed through different cultures?<BR/><BR/>Here in France, by contrast, I can learn about different traditions by walking down the street and looking around, but I haven't seen much in the way of deliberate multiculturalism. I think they're a good deal more aggressive here about cultural assimilation than Americans are. The idea seems to be "If you want to live here, then <I>you will become French</I>" regardless of what culture you came from originally. There's no religion allowed in the public schools, but they celebrate (secular) Noël in the schools like nobody's business. So in my kids' school we have little Muslim kids making Santas and Christmas trees to bring home to their parents. Is this good or bad? I really don't know. That's what I was talking about in terms of being conflicted about it (in my response to MathMom, above).C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-86678055376807266272007-12-24T00:25:00.000-08:002007-12-24T00:25:00.000-08:00Alon, I sincerely hope you're enjoying your ignora...Alon, I sincerely hope you're enjoying your ignorant statements. It would be a pity if you were being hyperbolic for no fun reason.<BR/><BR/>"There's no Pagan background for whose atheists to celebrate the Solstices."<BR/><BR/>Hi. I'm an atheist from a Pagan and semi-Christian (mom was an agnostic, raised Lutheran) background, and I do still acknowledge the solstices and equinoxes and may or may not light a candle (depends on if I have a candle, really). There are plenty of us out there. Please stop saying things that are totally unsupportable?<BR/><BR/>Also, this is really uncalled for:<BR/>"Pagan holidays are celebrated about the same time as Christmas, but they're too New Agey to be serious, as opposed to funny ideas like Towel Day and Talk Like a Pirate Day." Just because you dislike them, they don't qualify as 'real' holidays? But Christmas IS a real holiday? How arrogant.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-86736610331534747632007-12-23T18:46:00.000-08:002007-12-23T18:46:00.000-08:00Also on the subject of multiculturalism, if you wa...Also on the subject of multiculturalism, if you want to be serious about it, you should do what the middle school I went to did. There, every group got its own holidays. Before Diwali there were posters about the holiday and about Indian culture, before the Christmas break my drama class did a spoof of nativity plays, and before Chinese New Year there were acts about the Chinese zodiac and the animal represented by the coming year.<BR/><BR/>A lot of it was fake and contrived, but some was real. Most importantly, each group got to set its own holiday dates. The American equivalent of that would be to celebrate Passover in addition to Christmas, rather than pretend the most important holiday always falls around the end of December. The current way it's done in liberal America is best summed as, "And though I am a committed Christian, I believe that everyone has the right to their own religion, be you Hindu, Jewish or Muslim. I believe there are infinite paths to accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior."<BR/><BR/>It's the same thing with black people. Some white liberals worry about whether it's better to say black or African-American. Others know black people, or read what black people say.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-10999341165145922722007-12-23T18:19:00.000-08:002007-12-23T18:19:00.000-08:00Diwali is celebrated about a month before Christma...Diwali is celebrated about a month before Christmas. If the phrase Happy Holidays includes it, I reserve the right to wish people a Merry Christmas right before Chinese New Year.<BR/><BR/>Pagan holidays are celebrated about the same time as Christmas, but they're too New Agey to be serious, as opposed to funny ideas like Towel Day and Talk Like a Pirate Day. Atheists who come from a Christian background celebrate Christmas; atheists who come from a Jewish one celebrate Passover. There's no Pagan background for whose atheists to celebrate the Solstices.<BR/><BR/>Chuck, the phrase Happy Holidays dates back to the 1940s, when it was a shorthand for Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Nobody says happy holidays around Labor Day because there's only one holiday around that time Americans have heard of. I mean, yeah, there are some goofballs who talk about holiday trees, but the whole reason they're goofballs is that they care about those trivialities instead of do something useful to further multiculturalism, like lobby for more teaching of foreign languages and translated literature in schools.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-13375565605283713932007-12-22T23:58:00.000-08:002007-12-22T23:58:00.000-08:00Hey Sinister Porpoise!!!Io Saturnalia!!!I'm with y...Hey Sinister Porpoise!!!<BR/><BR/>Io Saturnalia!!!<BR/><BR/>I'm with you completely about taking offense. I don't think people should take offense when others with them joyous celebrations of holidays they don't celebrate. But honestly, I don't think that's the problem here. The problem is people taking offense when others want to recognize that there are mid-winter holidays besides Christmas. Frankly, these crusaders for Christmas need to stop being so sensitive and stop getting offended by the existence of other people's holidays.C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-54462592473054232282007-12-22T18:54:00.000-08:002007-12-22T18:54:00.000-08:00Even though it ends tomorrow, I'd like to say a he...Even though it ends tomorrow, I'd like to say a hearty Io Saturnalia!<BR/><BR/>Anyway, taking offense at either Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays is stupid.<BR/><BR/>But, even as a Republican, I really don't believe in some of the crusades Fox News chooses to support...The Sinister Porpoisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06598370622023551565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-31462042436383886272007-12-21T23:20:00.000-08:002007-12-21T23:20:00.000-08:00Hey Deacon!!!Good points. It's important to keep ...Hey Deacon!!!<BR/><BR/>Good points. It's important to keep in mind that O'Reilly isn't speaking for all Christians and there's no reason for Christians to assume they have to agree with him just because he claims he's their champion.C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-90742076129881126572007-12-21T19:39:00.000-08:002007-12-21T19:39:00.000-08:00A host of reasons exists for the pushing and forci...A host of reasons exists for the pushing and forcing the Christmas issue into the public square. For some they see it as a political cause to help gain them support. For some it seems more it about ratings and pet issues. Still for many others I believe it has more to do with a combination of an over-romantic view of Christmas’ past, lack of historical perspective as to the essence of the message of peace and fear of multiculturalism.<BR/><BR/>Christmas as we know it in North America has been a cultural holiday for five or more decades. The religious message is secondary to much of what is done ahead and during the holiday. <BR/><BR/>What is most interesting is that if the Church’s theology is understood correctly, Christmas should not be the main celebration and focus. The Christmas story is secondary to the Easter story, both Good Friday and Easter Sunday. <BR/><BR/>What a hoot that Christians fight for everyone to say “Merry Christmas” but when it comes to their main celebration on Good Friday, Christians go to work as normal and most do not attend Good Friday services. They fight over Christmas while their celebration of Easter, the heart of their faith, is anemic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-9109918895717173982007-12-21T18:32:00.000-08:002007-12-21T18:32:00.000-08:00p.s. to mathmom: I meant "Joyeuses Fêtes." (How ...p.s. to mathmom: I meant "Joyeuses Fêtes." (How embarrassing -- I knew it looked wrong when I wrote it. Too bad blogger doesn't let me edit these comments... ;^) )C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-70092917903631815802007-12-21T11:30:00.000-08:002007-12-21T11:30:00.000-08:00Tom, you are the most adorable thing ever!!! How'...Tom, you are the most adorable thing ever!!! How's that for a holiday greeting? ;^)<BR/><BR/>But really, your comment expresses what I'm talking about. Regardless of your own traditions, why not show a little consideration for your friends? And as your story shows, interest, curiosity, and exchange follow. :DC. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-73990076865435513432007-12-21T11:13:00.000-08:002007-12-21T11:13:00.000-08:00When people wish me Merry Christmas I say thank yo...When people wish me Merry Christmas I say thank you. I don't say it back but I do say to them, "Happy Holidays to you too." I don't say Merry Christmas anymore because I don't feel comfortable saying it. It sure doesn't offend me though when people say it to me. And I think Happy Holidays is a perfectly appropriate response that shows respect and acknowledgment.<BR/><BR/>And yet...<BR/><BR/>My practicing Jewish friends sometimes say Merry Christmas to me and sometimes they say Happy Holidays. The sentiment is the same either way. During their high holidays I say to them "Shanah Tovah." I think it would me more than a little weird on Yom Kippur for example, to say Merry Christmas?<BR/><BR/>I called some Israeli friends of mine and specifically inquired as to what the proper greeting would be for the high holidays. Why? Because I wanted to say something a little more meaningful when it came to honoring their practices and traditions. In other words, I'm all over the map. Maybe because Judaism doesn't touch me personally I don't have a problem with Shanah Tovah. And also, Shanah Tovah doesn't have a god's name in it. That could be the difference. <BR/><BR/>In the end I guess I just don't understand why the fundamentalists are making such a big deal out of this. Are they afraid Jesus is going to disappear if they don't keep saying his name or derivatives of his name over and over and over?<BR/><BR/>I'm mystified by all the controversy over holiday greetings. I'm not really clear about it myself I guess. But I really don't care what others say or do as long as I'm comfortable with what I'm saying or doing.<BR/><BR/>One of my dearest friends who is Jewish asked me if I was still involved in the whole Christmas thing. I told her I wasn't and she asked what she should say to me for the holidays then. I told her she should say to me, <I>"I have a boyfriend for you and he's rich and handsome and hung like a horse."</I><BR/><BR/>I think that would be a nice greeting for the holidays, oui`?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-56345006543679088692007-12-21T09:21:00.000-08:002007-12-21T09:21:00.000-08:00Hey Chuck!!!Well it looks like you see subtraction...Hey Chuck!!!<BR/><BR/>Well it looks like you see subtraction where I see addition. True, apparently the tree in Boston had been called a "Holiday Tree" before they changed it to "Christmas Tree." But I'm not sure precisely how it got called a "Holiday Tree" in the first place.<BR/><BR/>But as for people who feel bad about celebrating Christmas themselves just because some people prefer to say "Happy Holidays" to people they don't know? Have you met a single one? I haven't. Such a (hypothetical) person would seem awfully hypersensitive to me, and I thought you were the one complaining about having to worry about the feelings of hypersensitive people... ;^)C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-5426703587953482922007-12-21T09:06:00.000-08:002007-12-21T09:06:00.000-08:00Of course you're right that Christmas isn't going ...Of course you're right that Christmas isn't going anywhere. In the same way, Ramadan isn't going to disappear just because someone at my office party starts yelling "Merry Christmas! Don't you love Jesus Christ?" at all the Muslims. But I'm talking about how people feel. <BR/><BR/>When we chide people for saying "Christmas" and euphemize it to "Happy Holidays" (and yes, I think it is euphemistic — nobody says "Happy Holidays" around Labor Day even though the biggest holiday of the Jewish calendar is also then), it can make people feel like they're doing something wrong by celebrating Christmas. I don't feel that way, but I can see that's how people react.<BR/><BR/>It's the same way some folks no longer know what they should call black people — they've been made to feel uncomfortable talking about the subject as all, because it seems like they're bound to offend somebody. It's not necessarily reality, but it can seem this way when people all around you are clamoring to get "Christmas" removed from things. (And like I said, this does happen in some places -- you yourself mentioned the Boston Christmas Tree.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-9377990969593934732007-12-21T08:38:00.000-08:002007-12-21T08:38:00.000-08:00Thanks Laura!!!This is essentially what I've been ...Thanks Laura!!!<BR/><BR/>This is essentially what I've been thinking ever since I first heard of the "War on Christmas." For me, one of the most interesting things about Christmas has always been the eclectic mix of traditions. And recognizing that it's part of a family of traditions that includes a lot of non-Christian holidays doesn't diminish Christmas, it adds to the fun. I've always felt that way, even when I was a kid and a believer.C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-86438670480547141232007-12-21T07:51:00.001-08:002007-12-21T07:51:00.001-08:00Wow, you hit the nail on the head with this post!Wow, you hit the nail on the head with this post!Lolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09309517365058583328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-55962373438234067242007-12-21T07:51:00.000-08:002007-12-21T07:51:00.000-08:00Thanks Chaplain!!!That's cool that you're bringing...Thanks Chaplain!!!<BR/><BR/>That's cool that you're bringing up this question to friends and family. Now I'm curious as to what you wrote...C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-43294122196921319232007-12-21T07:10:00.000-08:002007-12-21T07:10:00.000-08:00Good post. I wrote something similar on my family/...Good post. I wrote something similar on my family/Christian friends blog. I wanted to give the Christians I know something to think about. I don't think I'm going to post it at the chapel, however, as all of those readers have access to lots of good posts on the topic, such as yours.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19053670.post-84757324559555655732007-12-21T06:16:00.000-08:002007-12-21T06:16:00.000-08:00Hey Mathmom!!!That is a very good question. I kee...Hey Mathmom!!!<BR/><BR/>That is a very good question. I keep thinking I should write about the situation here in France, yet I feel a little conflicted about it, so I'm not sure exactly what to say. I guess things that are a little confusing make for good discussion posts, so I'll probably write a post about it and before the year ends, with pictures of all the holiday lights and the Christmas trees put up by the city of Bordeaux. :D<BR/><BR/>To answer your question, the equivalent in French would be "Joyeaux Fêtes" or "Bonne Fête." This time of year, these are used interchangably with "Joyeaux Noël" and I don't think there's any controversy about it. The same terms get used for other holidays -- for example the standard way to wish your mom a happy Mother's Day is to say "<A HREF="http://lfab-uvm.blogspot.com/2006/05/bonne-fte-maman.html" REL="nofollow">Bonne Fête, Maman</A>."C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.com