I told you to "get over it" and move on???

Wow, I really need to work on my writing skills, especially clarity!

I was perusing my blog log this morning and discovered that the folks of RfM had linked to my ex-Mormon vs. post-Mormon vs. DAMU post. Here's their conversation (note: this link will be dead in two weeks). That's fine -- people are heartily encouraged to link to my blog! -- but the disconcerting part is that they seem to believe that in that post I was telling them that they need to "get over it" and move on!

Here's what I meant to say with that post: "Many people believe that to 'recover' from Mormonism means to forget about it (especially stop being angry) and move on. However, I disagree with that position. Even though I don't read or post angry rants myself, I don't want to judge people for being angry. Ex-Mormon, post-Mormon, DAMU -- we're all part of the same community, and shouldn't let labels divide us."

Does that come through in the original post, or did my double-negatives do me in? ;^)

p.s. I thank RfM for linking to me on their blog list. I only get a couple hits a week from that link, but almost all of them stick around to read part or all of Exmormon.

ex-Mormon vs. post-Mormon vs. DAMU

What's in a name? ;)

Back when I wrote my handy guide to different types of Mormons I claimed that ex-Mormon and post-Mormon are just two words for the same thing. Since then, many people have told me that there's a real difference between the two, namely that an ex-Mormon is someone who is angry and/or recovering whereas a post-Mormon is someone who has moved on.

That makes a lot of sense as a distinction, and I suppose that's the idea of this one new forum I found the other day: postmormon.org. I guess if that's it, I'd qualify more as post-Mormon than ex-Mormon myself. My novel qualifies more as ex-Mormon since the focus is on being Mormon and experiences shortly after leaving the church. (Yay, I don't have to change the title!) Maybe the sequel should be called post-Mormon...

However, it's important to keep in mind that a lot of people's choice of labels depends more on which they encountered online first, so people who started out on RfM are more likely to adopt the label "exmo" whereas those who came in through the foyer are more likely to go with DAMU (DisAffected Mormon Underground).

It is becoming increasingly clear that Recovery from Mormonism (the main bulletin board of exmormon.org) has a bad reputation -- not only with believing Mormons but within the post-Mormon community -- as being full of angry rants, and I think that may be why a number of former Mormons take offense at being called exmos.

It's unfortunate if this is causing a division of the variety "I don't believe in the church anymore, but I'm not one of them." I'm not terribly interested in posting (or even reading) a bunch of angry rants myself, but I think most of us have gone through some anger over this, and can understand what people go through when it sinks in how very much they and their families have sacrificed for something that ultimately they've found to be false. So I hesitate to say "Hey, just buck up and stop complaining" or even "Whew! I'm glad I'm not like that!" since who knows if any given "angry apostate" will still be "like that" a year or two from now.

So I guess I'm saying that while I'm interested in building bridges of common interest with the faithful Mormons, I don't want to do it by trying to draw a line around the "good guys" that includes me and leaves people who aren't all that far from me out in the cold...

Cross-posted here.

Recovery, Self-Discovery, Community

I won't grow up. So what if I'm going to be thirty-five in two weeks and have taken on adult responsibilities? (job, committed relationship, kids, mortgage...)

I don't ever want to stop reinventing myself. And reinventing myself requires knowing the raw me that I'm starting from; constantly reassessing who I am, what I've done, who I've been.

That's why I'm never been partial to the recovery model in which "recovering" means getting to the point of never thinking about or speaking about Mormonism again. I don't feel like I need to forget my past in order to move forward.

Changing your world-view always entails some difficulty, pain, and disorientation. If you're in a state where Mormonism is haunting you against your will -- in your home, in your family, in your mind -- then "recovery" is the best word for what you need. And a support network of fellow exmormons is a good place to turn for help. But for former Mormons to continue to contemplate Mormonism on their own terms is normal and healthy. To believe otherwise is to grant that those who leave the church must leave it alone and have no right to their own past.

I think that recovery is only one part of why exmos befriend each other online. To me it's one of three main facets of exmormonism on the Internet: recovery, self-discovery, and community.

JLO's fun new "Know your blogger" feature is a great illustration of how these three aspects of Internet exmormonism work together: by sharing feelings and experiences related to recovery, we build friendships and community. Check out his first three installments: Fiddley Gomme, The Sinister Porpoise, and A New Eric.

(And while you're at it, don't forget to check out the last few installments of "Carnival of the Veil": here and here.)

Making positive social connections with interesting people is a big part of what blogging and forums are about for me. So it always surprises me to see how many people see the word "exmormon" as a negative way to identify yourself (as JLO discovered here -- not to pick on that one blogger or anything, I hope she'll join our community).

It's true that the first part -- "ex" -- is a negative, but the second part -- "Mormon" -- isn't. Many people who have been Mormon refuse to identify as anything that has anything to do with the word Mormon. So to identify as "exmormon" (or "exmo") is as much a way of saying "Mormonism has been a part of my life" as it is a way of saying "I am not Mormon". It means admitting to be a type of cultural Mormon along with active Mormons, jack-Mormons, etc.

Another reason that "exmo" is seen as a negative term is because a lot of exmo bonding looks like bonding over griping. But I think it's typical for friends to bond over griping when they have shared gripes. It's a way to share sympathy and solutions.

If you follow my blog, it should be pretty obvious by now how self-serving this three-pillar model is. I never had much to recover from -- Mormonism has caused me very little grief compared to the exmo average. Yet Mormonism has been an important part of my life, my formative years, my family, and my family history. And I love navel-gazing (I mean, y'know, self-discovery ;-) ), and loooooove making friends and exchanging ideas on the Internet.

Particularly with people I have something in common with, such as fellow cultural Mormons.

What? I'm not an apostate???

I guess it depends on who gets to define the word, but it would appear there are some conflicting definitions floating around.

I always thought that because I grew up believing in Mormonism and don't believe it's true anymore, that alone would be sufficient for me to qualify. But already when I posted this guest post on fMh I discovered there was some confusion as to who's really an apostate and who isn't.

Now somebody called "Mad Viking" posted over on RfM a definition of "apostate" from the Church Handbook of Instruction that makes it look like Seth R was right after all. (see the comments on the above-mentioned guest post.)

Now I don't have the CHI in front of me to verify this quote, so take it with a grain of salt. Remember folks, don't believe everything you read on the Internet. Except you can believe with confidence everything that I post to my blog -- unless I preface it with "this is just something I read somewhere on the Internet" or other qualifier -- because I'm generally pretty careful.

So anyway, what was I talking about again?

Oh yeah, so am I an apostate or what?

According to this quote, maybe I'm not:

Apostasy

As used here, apostasy refers to members who:

1. Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders.
2. Persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishops or higher authority
3. Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sects (such as those that advocate plural marriage) after being corrected by their bishop or higher authority.

In such cases, excommunication may be necessary if repentance is not evident after counseling and encouragement.

Priesthood leaders must take disciplinary action against apostates to protect Church members. The Savior taught the Nephites that they should continue to minister to a transgressor, but "if he repent not he shall not be numbered among my people, that he may not destroy my people" (3 Nephi 18:31; see also Mosiah 26:36).

Total inactivity in the Church or attending or holding membership in another church does not constitute apostasy.

So for (1), even though I talk publicly about the LDS church in my blog and novel, it's not so much "opposition" as it is random snide comments and amusing anecdotes. For (2), if people ask me questions about what Mormons believe I'll answer them, and if any of my responses are inaccurate, at least no "bishop or higher authority" has told me to cut it out. For (3) I'm guessing that neither "Outer Blogness" nor Exmo-Social count as "apostate sects" because they sure as hell haven't encouraged me to practice polygamy...

I haven't even joined another church -- not that that would make me qualify!!

See, I would have thought that not believing that Joseph Smith or Jesus or any of those guys really had any supernatural powers would count for something. Guess not.

Not that it really makes any difference, it's just kind of interesting...

So I broke down and just alphabetized...

My earlier strategy was to play favorites when organizing my "Outer Blogness" sidebar and put those blogs at the top whose bloggers post the most comments on my blog. But as more and more new blogs were popping up, it became just too complicated to keep it up!!! And I don't want to sit around asking myself stupid questions like "Do I like Tim's blog better? or Mary's?" So I just broke down and went with everyone's favorite linear ordering: alphabetical!!!

I know that's not terribly original, so if anyone else has a more creative idea to suggest to me, please comment!

There are some really great new exmo blogs here -- check them out!!! I found some through RfM, some through other sources, and some found me. I'm still maintaining my disclaimers because I don't want to feel like I have to agree with everything posted to a given blog in order to provide a link. I'm suggesting some blogs here that I think my readers may find interesting, not encouraging some sort of thought orthodoxy.

I've looked at all of the blogs that I've listed here as "Outer Blogness," and as far as I can tell they're all bona-fide exmo blogs. Looking over the links harvested from a recent blog list thread over on RfM, I think at least one believing Mormon guy slipped his blog in there. LOL!! Naughty, naughty!!! I don't object to linking to LDS blogs (as you can see from my sidebar), but ones that have persuaded me that they are interesting, not ones that get in the door through sneakiness!!! ;-)

Also, I thought it was really charming that Sideon asked Rebecca's explicit permission before linking to her blog here.

I would do that too, except that then it would take me friggin' forever to construct my sidebar. So instead I take more of an attitude of "Hey, you're on the Internet buddy!! If you don't want people reading your blog, then what the hell is it doing on the Internet?" That said, if anyone I've linked to objects to having a link from here to their blog, please comment below, and I'll be happy to remove it.

Also, if there are any exmo-interest blogs I've missed, it is just an oversight. If you would like me to provide a link to your blog, please comment here, and if it's not obvious, be sure to specify whether it is pro-Mo or post-Mo. :D

"If the church weren't true, I'd be an atheist" and other things I learned in seminary....

When I was a senior in high school, our early-morning seminary class was taught by three divorced ladies all living in one house with all their respecitve kids: Sister Intellectual, Sister Mystic, and Sister Homemaker [not their real names as you might guess... ;-) ]

I related best to Sister Intellectual.

One morning I awoke from my usual early-morning-seminary stupor to find that Sister Intellectual was talking about the lack of unbiased historical evidence for the existence of Jesus.

I remember vividly hearing her say "Good old Jospehus!" She explained how she had had a period of doubt, and the testimony of (non-Christian) Josephus served as evidence that Jesus lived and was the Christ, and that from there the first vision, the three witnesses, and all the rest fell into place, and if not for that she would doubt the whole thing.

(Note that I'm pretty sure she was talking about a passage that is commonly believed to be a forgery...)

Many Christians will find this ludicrously ironic that she felt that the weak spot in Mormonism was the evidence for the existence of Jesus, but I could see her point.

So as usual I took my best church friend to school (she was a sophomore, but was the only other LDS girl in my whole high school), and as usual we went to pick up my best friend who was a senior like me but was a devout Lutheran.

My LDS friend and I talked about what we had heard, and we agreed without hesitation that if the church were not true, the most logical alternative would be atheism.

The hilarious thing was that I was actually surprised that my Lutheran friend was annoyed at us for suggesting such a thing... lol

Of course at this point I was mere months (or perhaps even weeks or days) away from the epiphany of a lifetime......


Posted to RfM January 9, 2006.

Authentic faith-promoting anecdote for my LDS friends

This story was posted over on RfM by an authentic apostate (posting as "Hie/Goodbye to Kolob"), so I assume it is a true story. I'm copying it here because it made me laugh, and hopefully I won't accidentally strenghten anyone's testimony with it... ;-)

God punished me today for being a smart a** to the sister missionaries.

I saw two sister missionaries today crossing the street in Orem. I slowed down to wave them across. I rolled down my window and said with a smile on my face "You know, it's not true." They just turned their heads and walked off.

I drove off with this grin on my face. I reached down to grab my coffee and that damn plastic lid came loose and poured coffee on my shirt and crotch. Damn it!

(Sorry, I know I shouldn't be laughing at other people's misfortune, but I assume it was intended as a humorous story... :D)

Youth Conference 1986

Some may have noticed that I've been serializing my Youth Conference novella over on RfM. The novella is part II of my novel Exmormon.

It's fiction (though the Youth Conference part is strongly based on actual events), so for non-fiction lovers, I thought I'd post my real-life Youth Conference journal entries for you here.

Let's set the way-back machine for August 4, 1986...

I recently went to Camp Many Point and then to Youth Conference. I will tell about Youth Conference first.

I knew I would hate it there. I told my mother I didn't want to go and not to sign me up for it, but of course she did anyway. I convinced my friend Jennie H- to go too so that I wouldn't be miserable. (She didn't want to go either.)

...here I'm skipping two pages of description of how very awful it was. It just keeps going and going... ;-)

We girls got dorms that were intended for boys. There were urinals and dirty drawings on the walls and everything. The dorms were incredibly ugly and the closets stank.

The activities were over-planned and boring. Most of them took place in a huge hot auditorium. It was stuffy and uncomfortable. In contrast I practically froze to death during the seminars.

We had testimony meeting on Saturday only to have one the very next day in our own wards the very next day.

Everyone was playing frisbee, and although I love the game, no one threw any to me.

Once Chris O- and Scott R- were playing frisbee. I walked by with Jennie as it was coming to Scott. I lined up the angle and stood in line with where the frisbee would come. Scott, being a polite kid, wasn't about to knock me over for a frisbee. He just stood there.

When it came to me I put my hand up and let it fly in. It was a perfectly effortless catch.

Scott then turned to me, and by the expression on his face I could tell he was in a state of shock. "Nice catch," he said surprisedly.

I was a little surprised myself and since I was quite embarrassed, I just tossed it back to him saying, "Here, want this?" turned and kept walking.

I think I know why he was so amazed. I've known Scott for several years and during that time in various groups and organizations we've played water balloon war, dunk people in the pool, canoe races, softball, kickball, volleyball, three-team keep-away, pie races, foozball, frisbee, tackle frisbee, sledding, swat the animal, hacky-sack, various relays, etc. I hadn't shown any promising talent in ay of these.

I might as well tell you right here and now that for years I've had the biggest crush on Scott. We've talked and had fun (our families are friends) and done a lot of things together. We were always at least friends although he nevver showed any specifically romantic interest in me.

At the dance that night my plan was to join in the group dances with Scott, Lynn, Karen, and Lynn's many male friends. I figured that during all this dancing I could look at him and imagine how wonderful it would be to be his girlfriend.

Unfortunately Jennie, being new, was shy because she didn't know anyone, and walked over to the tables. I figured I'd better go with her because I was her best friend at Youth Conference, and besides, I had nothing to lose because Scott seeemed to be ignoring me. I went over and talked with Jennie.

A few minutes later I looked at a table a few tables down, and there was Scott, talking to two of the girls he had met earlier that day.

I then said to myself, "Carrie, this has been coming for quite some time now. He doesn't like you at all, so just quit bugging the poor guy."

I turned to Jennie, who wasn't having a great deal of fun either, and suggested that we go back to the dorm. Surprisingly, she didn't want to. I asked her how long we'd been there and she replied "About 20 minutes."

"I guess I can stay for an hour, but after that I'm going back to the dorm."

For a half an hour I sat and wallowed in self-pity. I again asked Jennie the time. When she said there was only about 10 minutes left, I figured I could wait another ten minutes.

After a few minutes, Scott came hesitantly to our table and sat down. We had a wonderful conversation and he brought some other boys over to the table for Jennie.

We all had wonderful fun stacking cups, playing with the live-goldfish centerpiece and scratching words into the disposable plastic centerpiece.

Ah, how we danced. I was clearly the center of his attention. It was wonderful beyond description, especially holding him in my arms for the first time during the slow dances. We danced the last dance together.

The boys of our ward had escorted us to the dance, all except Scott. They had done a hopelessly lousy job of it. The boys walked ahead in a glob and the girls walked in a glob behind.

My mother, being a chaperone there, was determined that the girls should escort the boys to the next one, to show them how it's done, and to be polite and return the favor.

I, of course, escorted Scott. I took his elbow in the usual escort way as we walked to the dance. As we were walking he took my hand as we walked close together. I have to admit that I let out a few giggles, but it was so wonderful to be with the person I loved and know I was the object of his affections.

Actually, I should be really embarrassed to post something so ridiculous -- but what can I say? I think it's kind of funny, and apparently I have no shame... ;-)